The Ming Dynasty did not revolutionize

Chapter 416 Torture
Zhu Jingkun and other twelve princes arrived at the Guangdong Provincial Administration Office by carriage, and then began to handle the handover work with the officials of the former Guangdong Four Offices.

The princes wanted to take control of the situation in Guangdong Province as soon as possible, and the officials of the four yamen of Guangdong Province wanted to get away as soon as possible to avoid having too much contact with these princes at the same time.

Now that medicine is becoming more and more advanced, the emperor can probably live to at least eighty years old given his conditions. By that time, these princes will be sixty years old.

The current chief officials of Guangdong's four yamen would be around 70 years old by that time, and would have probably retired and returned to their hometowns.

There is no practical significance for them to make friends with these princes now. The best way to choose the right path is to seize the opportunities for promotion as much as possible rather than investing in things with little hope.

Instead, middle and lower-level officials who are close in age to the princes can be considered, but they also do not need to hand over.

The two sides handed over archives, official certificates, seals and other items as quickly as possible. The senior bureaucrats of the original four offices of Guangdong Province evacuated one after another, and the princes began to take over the four offices of Guangdong.

During this handover process, the guards arranged by the Fifth Prince also went to Huashan County accompanied by the Jinyiwei of Guangzhou Prefecture.

They found Situ Weixiong, a captain of the Jinyiwei in Huashan County, Jintang, a small flag officer of the Jinyiwei who was responsible for handling the theft case of a family surnamed Xian in Huashan County, and several Jinyiwei subordinates who were doing the work.

They were taken to the Guangzhou Provincial Court together with Xian Zhaoji, the head of the Xian family whose house was robbed, and the three Lin brothers who blocked the road to complain and appeal for justice.

The fifth prince arranged for a captain of the Jinyiwei in Guangzhou to interrogate these people one by one and question them about the circumstances related to the case.

The fifth prince and the tenth prince sat in the court to listen to the trial.

Situ Weixiong and Rong Jintang and several other people from the Jinyiwei of Huashan County, as well as Xian Zhaoji, the person who believed that the three brothers had committed theft, did not expect that they would encounter such a situation.

No one expected that the three brothers of the Lin family would come to the provincial capital to appeal for justice, and no one expected that they would run into the prince who came for training.

They all felt that they were in big trouble.

However, they don't think there is anything wrong with what they did.

Situ Weixiong, a captain of the Jinyiwei in Huashan County, said tremblingly that there was a witness who directly identified Lin Shuisheng, the father of the three Lin brothers, but Lin Shuisheng refused to plead guilty.

The key point is that the three brothers of the Lin family have no way to prove that they are innocent.

So the Jinyiwei used torture.

It was originally just a theft case, and the case value was not large. If the father of the three Lin brothers pleaded guilty, he would basically be sentenced to compensation.

If there is really no money to pay compensation, the most that can be done is exile.

Now exile to America and Africa is not a very dangerous thing. After serving a few years of labor in the local area, criminals can be converted into formal immigrants, and land will be directly distributed later.

The Jinyiwei did not use very severe punishment. They just beat him with a stick twenty times in the hall, which would not leave any injuries under normal circumstances.

The three brothers' father, Lin Shuisheng, actually died of illness.

Rong Jintang, a small flag of the Embroidered Uniform Guard, said that he had told the old man of the Lin family at that time that if they confessed at that time, they could go out for treatment first.

But Old Man Lin chose to stick to it to the end. A cold cannot be delayed, and as a result he became seriously ill and could not get up.

The two princes at the scene listened for a long time without saying a word. They just sorted out the causes and consequences of the matter in their minds and looked for existing problems.

The matter seemed very simple, just as the three Lin brothers wrote in their complaint, their father was arrested and interrogated by the Huashan County Jinyiwei because he was suspected of theft and died.

From a modern perspective, this process certainly has big problems. The first is torture, and the second is not seeking medical treatment when the suspect is sick.

The key point is that there were only eyewitnesses but no physical evidence, and the person involved did not admit his guilt at all, but he was still "guilty until proven guilty".

There are also claims that "you can get medical treatment if you confess" and that there will not be too severe a punishment even if you confess. These statements are suspected of inducing confessions and judicial transactions.

These are all issues of principle in the modern judicial process.

The two princes thought about it for a while, and the fifth prince wrote a small note, showed it to the tenth prince first, and then asked the guards to deliver it to the captain of the Guangzhou Jinyiwei who was in charge of the inquiry.

The captain of the Jinyiwei in Guangzhou took the note with both hands and continued to question according to the contents of the note.

Ask the Jinyiwei of Huashan County whether they have found any stolen goods in the homes of the three brothers and their father? Is there any physical evidence to prove that the father of the three brothers committed the theft?

And whether the person who accused the three brothers and their father of theft had any business dealings with the person whose property was stolen.

Situ Weixiong, a captain of the Jinyiwei in Huashan County, replied that although the stolen goods were not found directly in the homes of the three brothers, the jewelry box in the home of the owner Xian Zhaoji was pried open, and at that time only the three Lin brothers and their father were working in Xian Zhaoji's home.

The people who accused the three brothers' father of theft were other workers who were working at the home of the owner, Xian Zhaoji, at the time. They had business dealings with him, but they were very limited.

The Fifth Prince couldn't help but frown when he heard this. This information was too ambiguous and there was no conclusive evidence.

That's why the Jinyiwei of Huashan County wanted to torture the person involved to make him confess...

The fifth prince thought about it for a while, discussed with the tenth prince, and asked the captain of the Jinyiwei in Guangzhou to stop today's questioning.

The relevant personnel were asked to sign and seal their confessions, and then sent to the provincial government office for residential surveillance.

The two princes also returned to the provincial government office and notified their other brothers to come to a meeting to report the details of the matter.

The princes circulated the confessions of the relevant personnel, and most of them couldn't help shaking their heads and sighing.

"The matter is not very clear, but there is nothing wrong with the actions of the Jinyiwei of Huashan County. At least it seems that there is no problem at present."

"This is a normal phenomenon in the local area. There is nothing strange about it."

"It can be said that these three brothers are very courageous to come to Guangzhou Prefecture to appeal for justice for such a thing."

"So what should we do about this?"

"Tell them the facts are clear and there is no injustice, and let them go back?"

"They have gone to the extent of publicly protesting their injustice. There is absolutely no way they will just let it go. They have to consider revenge."

"What if the other party continues to make trouble in the capital?"

"This is the only way to deal with the incident in the capital. The Jinyiwei of Huashan County did not do their job carefully, but they did not do anything wrong."

The twelve brothers talked for a while, and the tenth prince frowned and muttered:
“But it was indeed the fault of the Jinyiwei of Huashan County that led to the death of Lin Shuisheng, the father of the three Lin brothers.

"We must take action, warn and punish, otherwise they will use torture more arbitrarily in the future.

"Even if someone was beaten to death intentionally, they can claim that the prisoner died of illness after being tortured."

The fifth prince thought for a moment and said:
"Then demote the Jinyiwei centurion of Huashan County by two ranks to a minor flag, and dismiss the minor flag officer in charge. Do you have any objections, brothers?"

The other princes felt that there seemed to be no problem, but for various reasons they did not agree immediately. They wanted to see if anyone else had any objections.

The Tenth Prince was the first to express his opposition:

"I don't think this is appropriate. After all, someone has died. If we punish them like this, it's like putting a price on that life." Then as long as they are willing to pay the corresponding price, or someone offers enough benefits, they won't mind committing the crime again.

"If someone is beaten to death, the corresponding punishment is only a demotion of two levels or dismissal, which really has little deterrent effect.

"We can all imagine that someone would bribe the Jinyiwei officials to torture to death those who have grudges against them.

"Including various family conflicts and personal grudges, and more importantly, business competitors..."

After all, the princes are princes. They don’t care much about the specific parties involved and only consider issues at the governance level.

The Ninth Prince couldn't help but speak when he heard this:

"What does Tenth Brother mean? Do you want that Jinyiwei who did the job to pay with his life?

“But human life is valuable, and some people can afford to pay for it.

“If the interrogation results in the death of the suspect, the person in charge must pay with his life, what will be the consequences?
"Will the grassroots Jinyiwei dare to use any tough measures against suspects in the future?"

The tenth prince did not have a very good impression of the ninth prince, his brother who was only a few days older than him:

"Of course, the Jinyiwei responsible will not be killed. The key to this matter is the control of the severity of the criminal law.

“It should have a certain deterrent effect on both the executor and the suspect, but it should not go too far and restrict the executor’s hands.

“How to grasp and control this degree requires our careful study and verification.

"Rather than just stating the most exaggerated and extreme possibility to negate reasonable considerations of detailed measurements.

“How is that any different than a quarrel with children?
"I am opposing your point of view now, which may make you feel upset and make you die of anger on the same day when you go back. This possibility exists.

"Does that mean I killed you?"

The Ninth Prince rolled his eyes upon hearing this:

"If you have any opinions about me, you can just say it directly. There is no need to mock me in this way.

“I don’t take exaggeration as reality, I use it to remind people of extreme situations.

“We are the governing officials of the entire province, and the case before us is not important in itself and can be regarded as a trivial matter.

“We need to consider the possible impact of the decisions we make and make overall regulations at a higher level.

“When governing, ordinary rulers are accustomed to making rules for existing things and defining the scope of what is allowed.

“But once policymakers set the rules, there will always be people who explore the limits of the rules and then use the edge of the rules to profit for themselves.

"This is determined by the innate greed of human beings, and there is no way to fundamentally eliminate it."

The tenth prince immediately asked back:
"What's the point of just saying this? How should we solve this problem? If your proposal really makes sense, everyone will naturally vote for you."

The Ninth Prince Zhu Jingtan certainly considered it, but his consideration was more traditional:
“The method is simple to say, it should be to create deterrence.

“As the saying goes, if the punishment is unknown, the power is unpredictable.

“We cannot put the standards out in the open and let cunning people find loopholes according to the standards.

“That is, don’t dwell on the specific details.

“We need to give more severe punishments based on specific incidents, and then make adjustments based on actual feedback.

"If an official acts recklessly, we will deal with him severely. If an official dares not to do his job and is slow and procrastinates, we will deal with him severely as well.

“When they do something, they cannot predict the final result, so that everyone will always be afraid of the court and the criminal law.

"Ordinary people are afraid to break the law and sue at will, especially when it comes to blocking the road and protesting injustice.

"But we also need to make sure that officials handling government affairs are careful in everything they do, and seek instructions directly when encountering sensitive emergencies, rather than acting on their own."

After hearing this, the Tenth Prince continued with his own words:
“My view is exactly the opposite. The most important job for us in power is to make rules.

“And the rules must be as detailed and clear as possible. Even if the rules are rigid, they should not leave too much room for free play.

"Under what specific circumstances can punishment be used, what punishment should be used for what suspicion, who should decide on the punishment, who should carry it out, and who should supervise it.

"How to deal with suspects before and after torture, including providing standardized examinations and treatment.

“All of this needs to be documented and archived.”

The Ninth Prince taunted without hesitation:

“You are too naive. Government affairs are always changing and we cannot predict everything in advance.

“There will always be unexpected things happening, so we must leave a certain amount of freedom for those in charge of specific matters.

“As rulers, we are the only ones who can control where the boundaries of these free spaces are. This is also the source of deterrence.”

The tenth prince simply shook his head and waved his hands:
“You are naive. In actual governance, absolute fairness that treats everyone equally is better than a so-called reasonable and fair solution that deals with specific situations.

"Freedom of expression means that officials can make decisions based on their personal preferences, and case-by-case treatment means that officials can treat people differently based on their circumstances.

"There is huge room for abuse of power for personal gain in both directions, and both are perfect breeding grounds for corruption.

“So what we have to do is block all possibilities and not allow any freedom.

“We need to standardize all currently known matters, and then specifically handle new incidents outside of known matters and form new rules.

“Government affairs are the same as anything else. If you don’t do something, it will never be truly resolved.

“You can’t just paint a general statement and hang it up because you think it’s troublesome, and then come up with a series of reasons to prove that it’s not that you’re lazy, but that you really can’t solve it.

“The new reform measures taken by my father in recent years are moving in this direction.

"Set rules for all court affairs, form clear and detailed documents, and let officials handle things step by step according to the standards in the documents."

The Ninth Prince was a little angry, and when he wanted to fight back again, the First Prince Zhu Jingkun spoke up:

"I think you've strayed too far off topic. We should first discuss the specific incident at hand, and at most extend it to torture.

“Other issues should be discussed in separate meetings, rather than spending too much energy on this right now.”

(End of this chapter)