I, Zhu Houzhao, join the US imperialist chat group

Chapter 188 The gap between Eastern and Western scholars! Was the West forced to industrialize?

[American Yingzong·Cleveland: Scholar? Imperial examination system? Your Majesty Li is talking about the student and official selection system, right? For us, these are two areas. In terms of students or education, I think this topic can be answered by President Jefferson. As for the official selection system, I feel that President Jackson can participate. 】

Cleveland immediately understood what Zhu Houzhao meant and automatically separated the two.

[Li Xuan, Emperor Xizong of Tang Dynasty: Huh? What's the meaning? Students and officials, two fields? 】

This directly confused Zhu Houzhao.

[American Yingzong Cleveland: Your Majesty Li, for us, education is indeed two fields. It just so happens that I also have a general idea of ​​the imperial examination system in your East. After our last chat, I also learned a little about the selection of officials. You in the East seem to have just started from your Sui and Tang Dynasties, studying and then taking an exam to become an official. 】

[You guys, studying there is too utilitarian and political. Basically, you study to become an official. 】

[But it is different here. We regard reading as a means and carrier to understand the world, and it has nothing to do with being an official serving the people. 】

[Li Xuan, Emperor Xizong of Tang Dynasty: Huh? 】

[Milejo Louis XVI: Cleveland, please tell me clearly, what is the difference? 】

When Louis XVI heard this, he felt a little confused.

[American Taizu Washington: What is the imperial examination system? 】

[Meixuanzong Jackson: We don’t have an official selection system here, right? 】

This topic has aroused some curiosity.

[American Yingzong Cleveland: Well, it seems that there is another gap between the East and the West. Let me tell you a little bit about popular science. His Majesty Louis XVI and President Washington, the East has long attached importance to education and the transfer of knowledge, and it has developed into a kind of culture. By educating a group of citizens from an early age, and then this group of educated citizens, through the East A series of examinations at the town, state, and central level were conducted to become officials who managed the people in the East. This formed a system for selecting officials. Sometimes a peasant could become the prime minister of the empire, which was also the inevitability of their unification of the dynasty. 】

[But we in the West are different. 】

[There are two stages. The first is in the early Roman Empire, when lords were loyal to the king, knights were loyal to the lords, and farmers were attached to the small nobles. The transmission of educational knowledge is often passed on by nobles and families, and ordinary farmers basically have no need for education. 】

[During this period, it was impossible for farmers to achieve this kind of class jump. Generally only aristocrats and wealthy families received education. 】

Zhu Houzhao quickly understood the social structure of aristocrats and retainers in the Spring and Autumn and Warring States periods.

[Also during this period, the selection of Roman officials was similar to a family and official recommendation system. But later the Roman emperor also abolished this recommendation system, because this kind of group of officials was a challenge to the emperor's power. 】

[Li Xuan, Emperor Xizong of the Tang Dynasty: Promoting filial piety and honesty, the nine-level system of integrity! Okay, I know that too. 】

It seems that there is no difference between the development of the two sides in this regard.

Zhu Houzhao was even more aware of the dangers of powerful families.

[American Yingzong Cleveland: As long as His Majesty Li understands, the next stage may be where the gap between the East and the West appears. 】

[The second stage is the beginning of the establishment of our school. The establishment of our school was started by the church. Initially, the church was used to train pastors, and the church also had a large collection of books. Fathers of churches and monasteries are considered to be the most knowledgeable people in society. Therefore, some kings would invite these people to serve as officials when they were short of talents. 】

Three thousand disciples of Tianshi Dao and Confucius were trained in the monastery.

Zhu Houzhao also quickly introduced these things. There are also examples. During the Northern Wei Dynasty, some monks also served as officials.

[This allowed the church to taste the sweetness and began to establish Christian colleges and sent a large number of pastors and priests to some kings. This allowed the church to share state power and become another stubborn force. 】

As for the movement to exterminate Buddhism, Buddhism is too powerful.

[Then...then came colleges such as Oxford University and the University of Paris. These schools were originally founded to teach Latin and theology-related content. Later, during the Renaissance, there were more books and it gradually developed into the kind of education it has today. Systematic. Although this education system also trained some officials, it did not form the Eastern system of becoming officials through examinations. Our officials are still monopolized by nobles, knights, and churches. 】

[When some ordinary people reach this period, they can pass exams to enter these universities, change their destiny, and get the opportunity to become officials. 】

School, Taixue, existed in the Western Han Dynasty, and Liu Xiu went to Luoyang to study. He even made the bold statement that when he is an official, he should be the King of Jinwu, and when he wants to marry, he should marry Yin Lihua.

In the end, he did transform from a poor farmer named Liu who was a member of the royal family and became the founding emperor of the Eastern Han Dynasty.

[But more people will work for the church, nobles, knights, and businessmen. Being an official is not their only way out. 】

[This also formed our fundamentals today. 】

[We still don’t have the practice of being able to become an official by taking a birth test. Generally, ordinary people participate in the grassroots self-government of the church and serve everyone, and are elected by everyone to become members of the parliament and manage some public affairs. 】

Here, there is a difference.

However, Zhu Houzhao did not interrupt, and he felt that the difference was not very big.

Imperial power did not go to the countryside, and many places in the Ming Dynasty were actually governed by officials and scholars.

[After becoming a member of parliament, he will be elected step by step to enter the federal government. 】

[The essential difference between us officials in the East and the West is: in the East, officials are appointed by superiors to manage the people, and power comes from above. 】

[As management service personnel here, we become members by proactively serving everyone, and power comes from the bottom. Of course, when we reach a certain level, power also comes from the top, but for more grassroots autonomy, most of the power still comes from spontaneous elections by the citizens. 】

Cleveland briefly introduced the differences between Eastern and Western education and official selection.

He said it so clearly that Louis XVI and Washington understood it all.

Zhu Houzhao finally discovered the subtle differences between East and West.

The wise and old people in the countryside have no fame and fame here, and they will still be petty officials until they die. No matter how good they are, they will never be able to become an official.

Unless those who rebelled in the Song Dynasty were recruited as officials.

In this regard, Ming Dynasty has already fully patched it up. Without achieving fame, it will never really be able to control the center of power.

The main reason is that there are too many readers!

Of course, when the Ming Dynasty was founded, there were not so many scholars, and some virtuous village elders, even scholars, could become officials.

It just appears in special times, and the mainstream is still scholars becoming officials.

[American Taizu Washington: From this point of view, how do I feel that our place is more democratic? The King of the East didn't know the specific situation of a certain area, so he just passed an exam and sent an unfamiliar person to be a lord. He was considered a lord, right? 】

[American Yingzong Cleveland: You can understand it this way. 】

[American Taizu Washington: This is a little too irresponsible! Can a stranger lead the citizens of an area? Will the interests of citizens not be harmed? 】

The gap between East and West is once again felt in Washington.

[Tang Xizong Li Xuan: Wait...what, Washington, we are undemocratic and irresponsible? Are you sure...are you really not afraid that officials who are chosen voluntarily by local people will become powerful forces? What happened in Haoqiang Fish and Meat Village has never happened to you? Without outsiders, the oppressed people would not even have a chance to express their grievances to the above! 】

[Also, what should we do if they coerce the people into rebellion? 】

[What should I do if they conceal the disaster and refuse to report it? 】

[Our central court does not send outsiders there, how can we know? 】

[Can the surrounding areas or the whole country be mobilized in time to rescue? 】

[You guys are like your own family taking care of your own affairs. It’s better to be rich. But when there is a disaster, do you just sweep the snow in front of your door? 】

What is undemocratic and irresponsible!
Zhu Houzhao refuted Washington almost immediately. Their side was more based on overall national considerations. What you focus on is risk support, but you have a greater sense of responsibility.

[American Taizu Washington: This...maybe, if this happens, they are punished by God? 】

Washington was paused for a moment, but in a flash he threw the responsibility to God.

[Li Xuan, Emperor Xizong of the Tang Dynasty: ...I beg to differ! 】

It was too outrageous. Zhu Houzhao once again felt the gap between the East and the West. The West does not care about the weak.

If you are weak and suffer disaster, you deserve it.

[American Yingzong Cleveland: Ahem! There is no need for the two to argue. In fact, there is still a basic gap in concepts. Your Majesty Li, you plan and manage the country with the concept that the country is a whole. Our side is more about autonomy and we don’t want the federal center to interfere in this. There are good aspects and there are bad aspects. 】

Cleveland quickly explained, knowing the basic logic of the disagreement here.

[Louis XVI: Anyway, I understand... In His Majesty Li's side, it doesn't matter blood or status. As long as ordinary people can study and get education, and then pass various tests in the empire, they can become officials. Or be a noble? 】

[Li Xuan, Emperor Xizong of Tang Dynasty: Yes! 】

[Meliezu Louis XVI: This is incredible! Some of it is unacceptable, I'm sure... As long as it is so easy to become a noble, the nobles on our side may be the first to refute us. 】

Realizing this situation, Louis XVI felt that some of the rituals and music in the East had collapsed.

There is absolutely no way that the nobles on their side can just sit back and watch this happen!

[American Xuanzong Jackson: This is indeed unbelievable, but...why do I feel that the official selection system of His Majesty Li and others is more fair and democratic to the majority of citizens. Everyone has the opportunity to become a noble, power is no longer monopolized by the nobles, and society seems to be more fluid? 】

Jackson suddenly felt that the Eastern imperial examination system had its advantages under the current elite political monopoly like theirs.

[Mercerson Roosevelt: I also think that the official selection examination like His Majesty Lee and his colleagues... seems to be able to be used in the examination for newly recruited officials in the current federal government. Because the current federal bureaucracy is solidified. 】

Roosevelt also felt a sense of gain and something to learn from.

[Meshi Zu Lincoln: I also think there are lessons to be learned, but I think it is a bit willful and hasty to become an official just by taking the reading test. Should we neutralize our eastern and western advantages and let them have local governance or grassroots service experience before taking the exam? 】

Lincoln also realized the disadvantages of selecting officials only by taking a test.

[Li Xuan, Emperor Xizong of the Tang Dynasty: I agree with this. It is indeed hasty to let them become officials simply through studying and taking the imperial examination. Some people even know how to read. 】

Zhu Houzhao admitted the shortcomings pointed out by Lincoln. In fact, the Ming Dynasty also avoided this aspect and allowed some scholars to go to local places to gain experience before they could become high officials. It's a pity that the taste has changed as time goes by.

[Li Xuan, Emperor Xizong of the Tang Dynasty: I don’t think we should discuss this point. Anyway, each has his own strengths. Another thing I'm curious about now is that there is more than one path for your scholars to be officials, so what do most of them do? What are the benefits to enhancing national strength? 】

Zhu Houzhao also soon realized that discussing this kind of official selection between the unified system and their feudal system was destined to be fruitless.

He simply changed the subject.

[American Yingzong Cleveland: President Jefferson has to say this. He should have a say in the field of education. After all, President Jefferson founded the University of Virginia after his retirement and has always advocated that citizens receive education. 】

Cleveland decisively mentioned Jefferson, and Jefferson really had a say in this regard.

[American Taizong Jefferson: Well, let me talk about simple education. After listening to what His Majesty Li and Cleveland said, I do feel that, Your Majesty Li, you are more utilitarian and political when it comes to education or knowledge in the East. But you have tied education to politics, so this is bound to be the result. 】

[But it’s different here... In a sense, the best way for ordinary people here to get an education is to become an official and become a noble. Because state power and interests are monopolized by aristocrats and church groups, this path is actually Already blocked. Ordinary people can only drink some soup and water outside of their core interests. 】

[Educated students are forced to make other choices. 】

[Based on the fact that they have been excluded from their core interests, we give them the right to education in the hope that they will clearly realize that their own destiny cannot be changed, and then let them understand and follow the rules and laws we have formulated, and become a better society. Easily disciplined citizens. 】

[After all, knowledge is monopolized by the nobility, and the legal framework established by the nobility... is actually to better manage them. People who are uneducated will behave carelessly, like wild animals, and will break the rules. But if you teach them to understand the legal framework, they can only act within the legal framework established by the nobles and have better management. 】

[We call this civilization. 】

In one fell swoop, Jefferson revealed the nature of human education.

[Li Xuan, Xizong of the Tang Dynasty: This is... brilliant! 】

Zhu Houzhao was really surprised. He never expected that Jefferson could analyze the nature of education from this perspective.

He even felt as if he had seen or heard such a discussion somewhere!

Yes, his father, Emperor Hongzhi, seemed to have said this when he was ignorant and just studying!

Scholars like Li Dongyang seem to be doing this.

Yes, that's what they did. Confucianism taught those barbarians from other countries, and they were good at this.

But his father and Li Dongyang never told him from another dimension.

Most of those who control education have actually monopolized many rights and benefits. The reason why the imperial examination was liberalized was to give some ordinary people the opportunity to come in and enjoy their rights together.

Others who have not studied are excluded from the core benefits.

[Meliezu Louis XVI: Can our laws still be understood this way? 】

Louis XVI immediately felt that he had gained more knowledge. No one had ever told him this.

[American Taizong Jefferson: The legal provisions were originally designed to govern ordinary people in the early days. Did the nobles... really receive such sanctions? 】

Jefferson asked directly, making everyone think deeply for a moment, and then nodded involuntarily.

These people in power are subject to legal restrictions and sanctions.

What's more, people like Jackson and Cleveland were born in law.

They already knew this clearly.

[American Taizong Jefferson: Let me continue the previous topic. We gave them the opportunity to receive education, and the benefits were taken by the nobles. These scholars or intelligent people would seek out their own interests spontaneously, or to obtain benefits from the nobles. 】

[This kind of motivation based on seeking self-interest, or gaining benefits by serving the nobles, drives them to use mathematics to settle accounts for businessmen, improve the Jenny machine to earn more benefits for businessmen and get rewards...Thus, mathematics, engineering, mechanics, and some other messy The disciplines were created, and then... slowly formed science. 】

[The emergence of science... directly changed our way of life, making food, clothing, housing and transportation even better than in the Middle Ages. Then... gunpowder from the East was passed over, prompting the emergence of muskets, artillery, etc., and then... science made all kinds of Resources are fully utilized, and industry is born under various coincidences. The national wealth is slowly growing due to the birth of this kind of science or industry...]

[That’s why...it’s possible that Cleveland and Roosevelt, as you said, can provide unlimited amounts of weapons and equipment and put them into the battlefield...]

[The above are the new things I feel after hearing the changes you mentioned and combining them with my knowledge. 】

[I think that the future development of our United States may be inseparable from the promotion of educated people who are forced to find other interests, or the development of mankind cannot be separated from a common cognitive improvement, which may be a ,wisdom. When more people learn to think, it becomes the wisdom of the entire country and the wisdom of the entire human race...]

Jefferson's rhetoric was even more confusing.

But Zhu Houzhao understood.

It seems that it can be summed up in one sentence. The wisdom of these Oriental scholars has been used in politics and officialdom.

Because of the huge benefits of officialdom, the West was monopolized by aristocrats. Scholars had no choice but to use the wisdom of reading in other places outside the officialdom to find other ways, and then develop technology by accident, promote the formation of industry, and increase national wealth.

(End of this chapter)